Caveat Emptor -2018 QS 10.0

[smjcolsga]

After doing a lot of research on the QS 10.0 camper model I decided it was a great fit for me and my TV, and since none were to be found on any dealer lot within 1000 miles of me and none with all of the options I wanted, I ordered one to be built. Just having taken delivery and spending a week with it I am not happy to report the following unannounced changes were made in the 2018 model:

1) the aluminum floor has been replaced with a monolithic composite floor, which doesn't sound bad until you step on it and feel it sag under your weight.. I weigh a modest 175lbs and my 105lb wife reports the same for her... you can definitely feel where the frame supports are and aren't when stepping on this floor. Also the floor dents easily.. after one trip i can already see permanent depressions in the floor where the top cabinet screws have dented the floor when in travel position. Not sure this flooring has enough support and is durable enough for this camper.
2) the dinette bench next to the divider wall now has a cut out in the bottom to fit over what appear to be larger wheel wells and is screwed to the floor! One of the selling points of the QS 10 was you could take the entire dinette outside... no more! and so much for the idea of using that bench as a cooler...
3) the divider wall trim cap is now a flat metal strip and is too wide for the divider wall and the overhanging metal edge is against the seat cushion on the screwed down bench.. not sure how long before it cuts the cushion.
4) unmoveable screwed down bench is too close to opposite bench so that table does not sit flat between them.. any weight on the canted table causes it to crash to the floor rendering it unusable as a sleeping platform.
5) the 12v round plug in the charging center is gone leaving only 2 usb ports... how do you plug in a 12v cooler now?
6) bed pole storage tube is now mounted diagonally under the frame which is ok on right side since frame there is slanted but on other side frame is straight so only one of two plastic mounting ears is bolted to frame.. I'm sure this plastic mount will crack over time due to flex.. needs a mounting bracket on the frame at that point to firmly secure the tube to frame.

Various other build issues noted, such as using too long of screws in the side bench top so they poke thru the padding and feel like nails when sitting on bench (i replaced all with shorter ones that dont extend thru seat base)

I do like the roominess of the camper and it travels well behind my car, even fully loaded.. but I can't say I'm happy with the changes noted above.. inquiry sent to LL and KZ about the saggy floor.. waiting on response. 

[djmiller]

Just so you don't think you are inquiries are being ignored.  I did recieve your email this morning and forwarded it over to sales and product development.
-Dan

[Railsnstiles]

I have looked forward to a qs10 for some time now and had hopes to order one within the next year. One of the main selling points has been the aluminum plank floor.  If that has been elimiinated it will be a deal breaker for me.  Any chance the squashy floor is something to do with the vinyl floor covering?

[smjcolsga]

No, it is saggy, not squishy.. you can feel the floor 'give' a bit when stepping on an area not directly supported by a frame member.. I don't think the bonding layers (with a foam core) are stiff enough to support even 100lbs across the spans of the frame without flexing... and the foam core is easily dented through the flexible top layer leaving lasting impressions as i described above.. waiting to hear what LL or KZ have to say...

[DavidM]

While I sympathize with those who feel that the composite floor is too springy and I haven't stepped on one myself, but I do believe it is an improvement over the old aluminum floor.

The aluminum floor leaked rain water because the joints weren't sealed. Also unless you put some sort of floor covering on, it was cold under foot.

The springing of the composite floor, while it may be annoying, is probably not a structural issue. Sandwich construction has tremendous ultimate strength and can stand a lot of flex before failure. I will bet that it will take a hundred pounds per square foot or more. Normal residential construction standards is about 40.

David

[jcamper]

Thanks for the comparison details, as I have not stepped on or experienced either.  It would be helpful to understand all the pros/cons of each material to understand the reasons for the design change.  Thanks

[djmiller]

David,

You are correct.  I don't doubt its capacity per sq/ft is less than the aluminum decking used in the past and it does flex in some places, if you are actually trying to feel any flexing, but on the plus side... it no longer allows the moisture through the floor that occurs when towing in the rain or on wet pavement allowing water to enter between the aluminum planks.   Though not really a huge issue as most individuals don't tow their trailer that often in rain but when they do, even in the travel trailers, have experienced water or dampness on the floor and have had issues trying to figure out where the water was coming from after sealing the wheel wells and every other suspicious conceivable area they just can't find where it comes from......  Including our service department.

It also adds insulation to the unit as does the new laminated sidewall.

-Dan

[smjcolsga]

Livin' Lite tent campers are a niche market appealing to those buyers looking for a rugged and simple camper that will outlast their need for it. If I were worried about a few drops of moisture on the floor I'd be as worried about any water coming in through the tonneau cover too. People love these and hang onto them practically forever because they simply do not wear out. If the vinyl floor covering an aluminum decked QS wears out or is damaged it is easy to replace, not so with a thin vinyl topcoat permanently bonded to a few inch thick layer of styrofoam. Sorry but in my opinion that is not even close to being as durable as a solid metal floor. We happily pay a premium for these over other more fully equipped campers because of the way they are (were) built to last. I'm sorry to see that has changed. In any case, new buyers should be made aware of these substantial improvements [sic] so they can make an informed purchase decision for themselves.

[tinkeringtechie]

We happily pay a premium for these over other more fully equipped campers because of the way they are (were) built to last. I'm sorry to see that has changed. In any case, new buyers should be made aware of these substantial improvements [sic] so they can make an informed purchase decision for themselves.

These changes are disappointing, but even more disappointing is that they weren't communicated to you before you made the purchase. Honestly, I would have (and still would) approach the dealer and tell them that this isn't what you agreed to buy. If I ordered a car and they delivered a vehicle with a foam floor, seats that don't fold down anymore, no 12v accessory plugs, and various other build issues then I wouldn't have even accepted it.

[smjcolsga]

I would have (and still would) approach the dealer and tell them that this isn't what you agreed to buy. If I ordered a car and they delivered a vehicle with a foam floor, seats that don't fold down anymore, no 12v accessory plugs, and various other build issues then I wouldn't have even accepted it.

Because of a late delivery of the camper the day we left for our trip I did not have time to go over the unit as carefully as I should  have before driving off with it. I mean, who even knew these changes were in the works? I'm in communication with LL about all of this, waiting to see how they respond.

[Entropy3XD]

So I just came on here to see if someone had the same concerns as I do about the 2018 10.0, and I concur with smjcolsga's list.

I just picked mine up 2 days ago and had to drive 8 hours to get it.  I had purchased a 2017 model, but when I arrived to pick it up, it was damaged (fault of the dealer, not Livin' Lite).  The dealer made things right and I got a new 2018 they had just received.  Date of manufacture was June 13, 2017. 

Although Dan Miller and DavidM bring up excellent points regarding water and the aluminum floor, the 2018 floor has some give to it, and I'm very concerned about its lifespan.  An aluminum floor was the #1 factor in my choice on the Livin' Lite over a traditional popup.

I have not experienced smjcolsga's  #4 issue with the table falling, but the table is thick and does not sit flush with the benches.  I share all other points on smjocolsga's list. 

In addition, I also have the following issues & concerns.  I'll pick up where smjcolsga's list leaves off:

7. Looking under the trailer, I don't feel the holes are properly sealed.  They are sealed from the top using a foam sealer, but it does not go all the way through to the bottom, so the bottom side of the holes are open.  I'm not sure what material they use for the floor, but its compact foam with an outer layer that looks like some soft, thin wood like material, coated with some sort of black fabric type material. 
8. The vinyl floor has bubbles by both beds, which I would expect over time, but this one left the factory 6 weeks ago and I've only had it for two days.
9. In the 2017 model, on the inside, there are plastic covers which cover the wheels, one under the table and one inside the side bench.  These covers look to be one piece with a lip and are screwed to the floor, providing a nice seal.  On the 2018 model, the wheel cover and lip look to be two separate pieces and have a gap between them, which is sealed with black foam and it looks sloppy. 
10. When hooked up to an external hose, the faucet is unable to completely turn off, even when using a pressure reducer.  The only way to turn off the water is to put a valve on the outside, or turn it off at the source.  The faucet works fine using the tank, but is pretty much useless for using a hose.  If I need to go outside to turn the water on and off, I might as well just do everything outside and not use the sink.
11. I'm not sure what sink is used in the 2017, but the 2018 has a plastic sink, which does not look to be heat resistant at all.  I wouldn't put anything hot in that sink.
12. I have a model with a furnace.  On the 2017 the air intake has a panel on the outside, and looks to be easily serviceable.  On the 2018 there is no panel and the air intake is just a metal grate which is caulked to the body.
13.  The privacy curtains are completely unusable.  They use fabric straps with velcro, but they were made with the loop on each end, so there is no hook side.
14.  On the bench side of the camper, there is a large window with a canvas layer and a tinted plastic window layer.  There are two sets of lower straps, one for just rolling up the canvas and another for rolling up the canvas and window.  For the canvas, there is a strap on the left and right, but for the window, left strap is not there, so If I roll up the canvas and window, it comes unrolled on the left side.  The straps are sewed into the canvas tent, and I see no way to fix the issue without replacing the entire canvas tent.
15.  When we opened the camper, it was the first time it was opened since it left the factory.  Metal shavings were everywhere.  I would it expect some shavings, but it was obvious the camper was shipped without a quick vacuum or cleanup.
16.  The propane hose from the tank to the distributor underneath the camper needs to be about 3-4 inches longer.  You can tell it's strained and slightly kinked at the distributor.
17.  The propane hose from the distributor to the internal stove goes across one of the corner welds of the frame.  None of the welds were rounded with a grinder and they are very sharp.  In feeling the side of the hose that rests against the weld, I can already feel it getting cut up.
18. The welds on the frame look sloppy.  I'm not a welder, so I can't attest to the strength of the welds, but there was obviously no cleanup with a grinder.  I could be nit-picking a bit on this one as far as aesthetics go, it is a problem with those propane hoses and electrical lines draping over those sharp edges. 
19.  On the kitchenette, I ran my hand down the side, between the unit and the got cut by something.  When I looked down there I found metal shavings sticking out where the upper cabinet meets the frame.  I don't see an easy way to a fix this without taking the upper cabinet apart to separate the cabinet from the frame, so I could easily cleanup the shavings.  I could try to carefully clean it up without taking it apart, but the shavings are sandwiched in there, so I'm afraid I'll scratch up the side of the cabinet trying to clean it up.
20. I also have the air conditioner and am really surprised there isn't a grate on the outside to protect the air fins on the unit.  Adding one couldn't cost that much more.  Again, maybe I'm nit-picking on this one, but I'm going to see if I can add a grate, as the unit sticks out and can easily be bumped into.
21. On the side bench, the padded top is secured with screws from the bottom.  When you sit down you can feel the tips of the screws, so I expect over time, these will eventually puncture through the material.


I fell in love with the 2017, but I'm not so sure I feel the same way about the 2018.  My advice to others looking for a 10.0 is to try and find a 2017 until the 2018 quality control issues are resolved.  I took pictures of everything and plan to call Livin' Lite tomorrow to see if I can get resolution to a few of my issues. 

[Entropy3XD]

Forgot one.

22) On the bed frames, the corners are pretty sharp I'm afraid they will eventually tear into the tent.  These should be rounded a bit with a grinder to reduce the sharp corners and edges.  I can't see where a grinder or file was used anywhere on my unit.

[smjcolsga]

I also had noticed the same 'build issues' such as sharp edges, sloppy sealing, etc but not having seen a previous year model myself I did not think to attribute these to be issues related to the 2018 change over. I concur with all the other points you mention with wheel wells, furnace, etc. as mine is identical in those respects though my faucet works ok. I replaced the bench screws with 3/8" pan head screws which don't poke through the base.

[DocktorJJ]

I am so sorry for new owners. My 2017 21RBS, has the aluminum floor covered with vinyl flooring. No floor leaks to date. I do have the TPO roof which will be changed to aluminum as soon  as my warrantee expires. 

I would NOT buy a new Living Lite for the reasons you have raised.  I CAN NOT recommend the current product!  So Sad!  I really love my trailer, but not the new ones.

I. may be looking into an Oliver or Big foot if we ever sell our 21BRS.

Shame on you THOR!

[Railsnstiles]

Sounds as if the resale market for "pre 2018's" may start heating up!